TimTalks: Automotive Leadership and Beyond

Understanding Your Brand’s ROI with Ben Hadley

• CarNow • Season 2 • Episode 20

Share episode

Ben Hadley, CEO & co-founder of Auto Genius, joined Tim for the latest episode of “Tim Talks: Leadership and Beyond.” From building a brand that can’t be measured by metrics to empowering teams with creativity and purpose, don’t miss the dynamic conversation on driving success. 

Ben shares his journey through tech, leadership, and launching game-changing strategies. Discover how community, culture, and long-term thinking are reshaping the future of automotive retail. 

Connect with Ben on LinkedIn, and follow Auto Genius. 

[00:00–01:12] Welcoming Ben Tim welcomes guest Ben Hadley, praising his expertise in automotive software and leadership. 

[01:13–02:11] Ben & Auto Genius Ben humbly reflects on the name of his company, Auto Genius, crediting his co-founders as the true geniuses. 

[02:12–06:14] Ben’s Automotive Journey Ben shares his unconventional path into automotive tech. Initially rejected by Dealer.com, he persisted until landing a sales role and rising to Director of Sales. 

[06:15–07:51] Ben’s Entrepreneurial Journey He details his journey helping scale companies and learning from industry trends before launching his own consulting firm. 

[07:52–13:21] Flipping the Script  Ben explains how building a community of top automotive marketers preceded the creation of his product—flipping the typical “product-market-fit” approach. 

[13:22–16:34] Supporting Marketing Departments Tim and Ben highlight the under-resourced dealership marketing departments, leading to the founding idea behind Auto Genius—solving problems like slow websites. 

[16:35–18:08] Metrics Aren’t the Full Story Ben criticizes the industry's over-reliance on short-term metrics and urges leaders to focus on long-term value and customer happiness. 

[18:09–21:18] The ROI of Culture They discuss how true dealership leadership means empowering employees, not just enforcing metrics. Great leaders create culture, not control. 

[21:19–23:36] The Waggle Dance Ben uses a bee analogy to illustrate how allowing experimentation leads to breakthroughs. 

[23:37–27:06] Why Build Local They explore how car dealers can build local brand equity where identity goes beyond metrics. 

[27:07–30:31] There’s No Metric for Brand Tim recaps Ben’s powerful takeaway: Your brand does not have a metric. Creating meaningful customer and employee experiences builds brand loyalty that numbers can’t always capture. 


00:00:00:00 - 00:00:15:27
Speaker 1
In over three decades, I've learned that truly great car dealerships are only great because of one thing leadership. So I'm sitting down with the great men and women. Inspiring Automotive on Tim Talks automotive Leadership and beyond.

00:00:19:26 - 00:00:50:27
Speaker 1
Well, welcome once again to another episode of Tim Talks Leadership and Beyond, where we always say no one is smarter than everyone. Let's just continue to get better together. I have the privilege of having in my little country, hillbilly opinion. In all seriousness, probably one of the smartest people, I think, in the automotive space today. Every time I've had the privilege to hang out with this young man, I am blown away.

00:00:51:00 - 00:01:13:16
Speaker 1
Not only of his knowledge of the space, in and out of the dealership in the software space. Just on his leadership and what he's doing and what he sees. Just talking right before, going live. Just what he sees in the space and how he sees it, I think is incredible. You are going to have an incredible 30 minutes with us today.

00:01:13:18 - 00:01:20:20
Speaker 1
The one and only Ben Hadley. You are here today. We are so excited to have you, brother. Welcome to Tim Talks.

00:01:20:28 - 00:01:25:20
Speaker 1
Oh my gosh, man! I'm not sure I deserve all of that.

00:01:25:20 - 00:01:31:02
Speaker 1
But I really appreciate it. Yeah, I always have to self-correct,

00:01:31:02 - 00:01:41:04
Speaker 1
too, because, you know, my the company auto genius won. It's a little bit of a bold name, now that I think about it is like, well, I will you must, Kylie, of you guys of

00:01:41:04 - 00:01:44:22
Speaker 1
yourselves.

00:01:44:25 - 00:01:46:06
Speaker 1
But I'm not even. I

00:01:46:06 - 00:02:07:01
Speaker 1
always tell people, look, I'm the space in between those two words. I got a co-founder named comments here who's done, like, every job at a dealership except for, you know, cranking on a wrench. He's auto. I got my other co-founder, Kevin Gervais, who's an absolute wizard behind developing stuff. He's genius. I just happened to like, hey, I'll be the space.

00:02:07:02 - 00:02:12:27
Speaker 1
I'll be right in between connecting those words. But yeah, man, I appreciate the, the accolades.

00:02:12:27 - 00:02:29:10
Speaker 1
Well, listen, a lot of people don't know you. I mean, a lot of people do know you, but the people that don't know you. I always like to start with your story. Everybody in life, we all have stories. And. And some of the things that happened to us in our younger years have developed us and molded us into what we're doing now.

00:02:29:10 - 00:02:33:24
Speaker 1
So. So take us back how did you even get in the automotive space?

00:02:34:05 - 00:02:59:03
Speaker 1
Oh, how did I get. Okay, so I told. I'll tell you how I should have gotten in my uncle. Bill Scheer. Growing up has had at the time five dealerships. I think we're down to four. And it would have been pretty easy, I think, for me to go work for him. What I said is, hell, no, I'm not going to work Canada.

00:02:59:05 - 00:03:24:25
Speaker 1
I'm going to work in tech. And I found this small little startup, and back in college, it was like a requirement to get an internship at my college in order to graduate. I found this small little startup called Dealer.com in Burlington, Vermont, and I said, I, you know, I'd love to join you. And they said, oh, well, we're looking for, someone to someone with a teaching background to help us in the training department.

00:03:24:27 - 00:03:44:08
Speaker 1
I said, perfect, I've been in retail sales my entire life. You know, my life is starting at 16, Circuit City. So. Yeah, but for a I've been in sales. Sales is the same as teaching. It's the same exact thing. You know, and they go, no, thanks. And they rejected me. I said, shoot. So I

00:03:44:08 - 00:03:50:20
Speaker 1
got home, told my my, future wife, at the time, girlfriend.

00:03:50:22 - 00:03:56:02
Speaker 1
I said, you know, it looks I'm not going I'm not going to get that, job, that tech role I

00:03:56:02 - 00:04:10:04
Speaker 1
wanted. And she said, well, you've never, like, been that bad at taking rejection. Why don't you just apply again until they accept you? And I said, oh, that's a great, you know, why not apply it again?

00:04:10:05 - 00:04:23:22
Speaker 1
It was the same exact people, and they said the exact same thing. They said, well, it looks like you can take rejection. Well, we do have an open eye opening as an intern on our on our sales team. Yeah. So I worked my way up to director of sales,

00:04:23:22 - 00:04:26:15
Speaker 1
had a bunch of different markets that I weren't ran over.

00:04:26:15 - 00:04:42:14
Speaker 1
Obviously that company sold, had a couple great things happen. And, I got a little bit bored. And, and I had this goal in my mind, which was I will become

00:04:42:14 - 00:04:54:24
Speaker 1
a founder, but I was too scared to just jump right into that. And so I made a plan. I said, I what I'm going to do is I'm going to slowly become employee number one.

00:04:54:26 - 00:04:58:13
Speaker 1
So, I went to a company called Claire Clairvoyant,

00:04:58:13 - 00:05:20:19
Speaker 1
Steve White, the best I the whole team. I love them so good. Columbus, Ohio. Ohio. Half my family's from Columbus. I go there as, like, employee 12, I think. Hang out there for 2 or 3 years.

00:05:20:19 - 00:05:29:08
Speaker 1
An absolutely amazing time. Leave there and go to a company called prodigy.

00:05:29:10 - 00:06:10:07
Speaker 1
This is right when digital retailing started to heat up. Now I'm employee number six. I think maybe five. We have at the time for customers. Get that up to, like, 120. Months go by, it's sold, and I'm out in, my own world. I think COVID's starting to creep in now, and I decided I'm going to start a, go to market strategy consulting company called Leviathan that is going to help some of these really, really smart founders that maybe have the genius component but don't have

00:06:10:07 - 00:06:15:17
Speaker 1
the auto component, and they just need someone to translate in between the two.

00:06:15:19 - 00:06:42:00
Speaker 1
Got a bunch of cool customers. Helped a few exit, and then I was like, all right, I think I've seen enough of the of the battlefield to feel like I can start my own thing. And the main thing that I'm so proud we did early was I had watched all these companies go through product market fit

00:06:42:00 - 00:06:45:06
Speaker 1
in literally that order.

00:06:45:08 - 00:07:10:24
Speaker 1
Two guys generally have a great idea. They make a product, they then linearly go to the market. They then hope to God that they have fit. Oh, but they don't. And so then you have this iteration phase. And iteration is sort of just a fun, positive way of saying wasting time and money and resources to go find that fit.

00:07:10:26 - 00:07:52:08
Speaker 1
So I said, wait, what if we knew exactly who we wanted to work with? And we created a community first. We did market first, then product, and then fit. And so we made this community. I made zero money for, I think, two years out of, you know, out of anything and just grew that community and grew and grew and grew and had some of the I mean, we still have, I think, the most powerful group of members in automotive, it's something like they represent something like 5000 something dealerships at this point.

00:07:52:11 - 00:08:36:07
Speaker 1
And if you actually mapped out the amount of members, it's like maybe 200 something members representing 5000 dealerships, but also representing over $1 billion in ad spend and in tech spend every year. So there's these, this group of 200 that have just enormous, outsized, influence over our industry. And the funniest part about that is there's like 1 or 2 of them per ten rooftop to hire dealer group.

00:08:36:09 - 00:09:06:07
Speaker 1
What you find is that there's this, like only almost lonely island of individuals at a dealership called the Marketing Department that are just served all of the craziest problems. And they're, they're they don't grow at the same rate as dealership growth, meaning you'll watch a five rooftop dealer group absorb another rooftop, another rooftop, another rooftop. And it's still just one guy, one girl doing all of this work.

00:09:07:00 - 00:09:08:13
Speaker 1
And so there's this need

00:09:08:13 - 00:09:35:27
Speaker 1
for them to be able to talk about, hey, what is everybody doing about the change on Google's algorithm? What are we doing about, how Facebook just made a change, all of those conversations and then eventually, you know, a couple of them started really talking about things they could not fix, one of which would be, eventually the birth of the idea of, of of what we do today, which is, speeding up sites.

00:09:36:02 - 00:10:07:18
Speaker 1
That that's that's that's amazing. Because you really get, There is a need because, quite frankly, most car people, myself included, you know, a decade or so ago, it's well own. And, you know, you get them here, I'll take it from there. But it's work, especially today that I'll get them here is has completely changed. And you know, with social media and everything and advertising and marketing and banner ads and, and all the stuff that we use in AdWords and, algorithm changes in Ga4 and we could go on and on and on about the constant changing, environment.

00:10:07:21 - 00:10:37:10
Speaker 1
It's extremely important to have somebody that's, that's, that, that can handle that and that, that, that is a go to let's talk about, what you're saying. I think it's extremely important, to bring people on, you know, the whole idea of of this podcast was the common thread. The idea was the common denominator with most dealerships that are Uber successful is the leadership in any company is the leadership, is the, culture per se.

00:10:37:14 - 00:10:51:24
Speaker 1
But as we all know, whether you're on clubhouse or you're a digital dealer, an idea or a pass event or wherever you're at, there's a lot of people that, that, that everybody's Miss America on a pitch. My myself it like

00:10:53:23 - 00:10:55:15
Speaker 1
Yep.

00:10:55:15 - 00:11:03:28
Speaker 1
actually moves the needle is what really desires, you know is is my desire what you know, forget my report.

00:11:04:00 - 00:11:26:00
Speaker 1
Forget. Yeah. What does your source report when you tag that event? What does that say? And is that selling more cars? You said something about creating a brand before we came on, and I thought it was so good. I'm not going to steal your thunder. Would you just, talk about that? And, in fact, let me back up a little bit.

00:11:26:02 - 00:11:47:22
Speaker 1
You said. And this is what I'll say, but I want you to unpack this. You said that most people are focused on metrics versus the law, the long term value. Can you unpack that a little bit as an organization, why are so many people just focused on reading the numbers, looking at metrics versus the long term value? Explain that to us Kentucky folk.

00:11:47:25 - 00:12:00:03
Speaker 1
Yeah, I I I was one of the things that probably, I think about a lot is.

00:12:00:05 - 00:12:10:09
Speaker 1
And I was, I'm, I'm maybe still guilty of it, but I was definitely guilty through of it throughout a lot of my career, which is, choosing the easiest path

00:12:10:09 - 00:12:33:10
Speaker 1
to a solution. Will often involve showing someone some numbers. And I there's a couple different reasons for that. But let me unpack. The first thing I've noticed, which is, back in the day, 2008 ish.

00:12:33:13 - 00:12:48:16
Speaker 1
You could just go in and say, you know, because there was literally dealerships that didn't have a website, you could go in and say, how many cars did your newspaper sell you? And they go, I don't know. You know, I can tell you how many cars a website will sell you. And they go, sign me up. That was great.

00:12:48:17 - 00:13:22:15
Speaker 1
Then, but fast forward almost 20 years and all of the decisions we make are almost based on an immediate gratification. Within the 30 days that we're operating. So what you see is, well, what's the ROI on that? What's the, you know, on every single decision. And what that then causes is sort of a reinforcement of short term immediate gratification.

00:13:22:18 - 00:13:56:20
Speaker 1
You see it in pay per click budgets. You see it in display budgets. You see it in, social media advertising. You see it in the website world, but nobody's actually, and I highlighted this by a dealership in the Midwest. They had a brilliant idea. They wanted to give all of their salespeople, empower their salespeople at different levels with a small budget per customer that they could choose to use or not, to make the customer happier.

00:13:56:23 - 00:14:05:15
Speaker 1
And a real life example of that would be, hey, you're a level three sales guy, so you now have $100

00:14:05:15 - 00:14:30:03
Speaker 1
every time you're dealing with a customer to just make their experience better. Oh, they're in right after soccer practice with their three kids, go out and grab them three Happy Meals while you're waiting right? And that ideal I thought was so perfect because it focused not on a metric.

00:14:30:03 - 00:14:56:10
Speaker 1
It's focused on how much happiness we were creating, how many smiles we were creating. We're back in the prodigy days, the digital retailing days, Cox, and they still have a, statistic that says this says something like, people hate spending 3.5 hours at a dealership on a Saturday. Now, this is a

00:14:56:10 - 00:15:01:22
Speaker 1
test for all the listeners. I'm going to say that stat one more time.

00:15:01:25 - 00:15:35:28
Speaker 1
People hate spending 3.5 hours at a dealership. Intuitively, what did your mind zoom in on as the problem? Because the time because it's a network. It's a metric that I can be impulsively changed and say, well, maybe I can get it for 45 minutes, but what if they still hate the 45 minutes? What if you just crammed a lot of stuff people don't like in a shorter timeframe, meaning the solution wasn't?

00:15:36:01 - 00:16:00:06
Speaker 1
Or the suggestion to solving this problem wasn't buying kids Happy Meals. So the 3.5 hours was awesome. The solution was actually, well, let's shorten up the metric. And I think, it's getting pretty evident when you have the other groups. I want to shout out Corsa Auto Group, go to their website. I mean, Casa feels like home.

00:16:00:13 - 00:16:14:12
Speaker 1
They have a brand. Big Tony is the man, and Ronnie the man. Koons.com. They have a brand. And I

00:16:14:12 - 00:16:41:03
Speaker 1
mean that in a way that's like they're thinking from a long term standpoint of, well, we know at our gut level that this makes people happier. DDG drive home happy. One of the best examples, if you put that in terms of an ROI, you you know, what the heck?

00:16:41:06 - 00:16:50:07
Speaker 1
Another another way to think about this too, is to ask yourself, what is the ROI of a phone?

00:16:50:09 - 00:17:15:01
Speaker 1
I don't know if I ripped out all of your phones. Would you lose money? Yes you would, you know. Cool. Let's do let's have phones then, right? Like if I gave you no brand, would you lose money? Yes. Let's have a brand then. And these are type of the types of things that I think we've ironically. And then I know vertical that loves advertising probably more than most.

00:17:15:04 - 00:17:32:14
Speaker 1
We've lost our way. A bit. And I think that actually also bleeds down to a leadership level, which is even down to how we're managing people. You start actually reinforcing things like, well, the data told me so. So,

00:17:32:14 - 00:17:44:25
Speaker 1
you know, don't fire me. Fire the data or fire the vendor. Right. And we actually use this as a kind of a scapegoat to protect ourselves and shield ourselves against poor choices.

00:17:45:28 - 00:18:08:26
Speaker 1
That's great stuff. You made a statement earlier, before we got on your brand. This is where you people in the back row lean in. Your brand does not have a metric. This is a, you know, we talk about leadership a lot in here. We talked about, Casa and Tony and the team out there and DGB and a few others.

00:18:08:26 - 00:18:40:23
Speaker 1
But what? There's got to be a first step, right? There's got to be a first step that that leader, that owner, that GM, that, variable obstruct whatever the title is. Sets the tone for we're going to be different. We're going to. But but I would also argue if that leader is a tyrant and treat his people bad, but says, hey, here's 100 bucks it's going to get, it's going to go over a lot different than if he, you know, is is demanding and you have to perform, but, you know, cares about his people.

00:18:40:23 - 00:18:59:14
Speaker 1
So, so unpack that a little bit. You mentioned a few dealer groups. What is what is a common thread between those dealer groups and their leadership, and how they create that type of experience? I've got my own ideas, but I want to hear, because you're in as many dealerships probably as I am on a weekly basis.

00:18:59:14 - 00:19:02:14
Speaker 1
Like what are you seeing out there? The difference with those stores.

00:19:02:18 - 00:19:39:28
Speaker 1
It's bandwidth. It's. It's a an allowance for creativity at, levels. And there's a great, TikTok I saw from this guy Rory Sutherland. He talks about, bees in a, hive do this thing called the waggle dance. So, you know, these scout bees go out, they find some flowers, they come back, and then they do this little butt dance.

00:19:40:01 - 00:19:46:18
Speaker 1
You know, go down the street left, you know, and then, then you go take a right and then and

00:19:46:18 - 00:20:03:18
Speaker 1
that waggle dance actually shows all the other bees where the flowers are. Yeah. 20% of. Yeah.

00:20:03:21 - 00:20:13:13
Speaker 1
That's right. 20% of all bees ignore the directions altogether.

00:20:15:04 - 00:20:42:29
Speaker 1
What those bees do is they wander a bit because what happens is those 20% actually go, and they go, I'm going to fly around a little bit, and then they discover a bigger field that hasn't been trampled by a bunch of cows that's, you know, right next door. And then those bees come back and those bees are listened to by everybody.

00:20:43:01 - 00:21:21:29
Speaker 1
All of the sudden people go, oh my gosh, I can't believe we missed the the field right next, you know, to the left. That's so much closer. It's so much more plentiful. And so there's this tolerance of, of almost having an R&D budget for every employee, allowing every employee to, you know, stray off the road to the sale a little bit, because that experiment, that AB test might end up yielding a field that's actually closer and then makes the entire hive better.

00:21:22:01 - 00:21:48:14
Speaker 1
And so I think, like you can think about that from a marketing budget standpoint, I, I've only experienced about and we've named a few of them, maybe ten dealerships that have a dedicated portion of their marketing budget that is specific for experimenting with new tech. Right. And it's usually comes to about 20%. And they go, yeah, if you can perform better than this other thing I got, cool.

00:21:48:16 - 00:22:15:18
Speaker 1
Let me put you in. But you can also experiment that with your sales folks, right? Hey, this is how we normally do things, but if you veer off a little bit, cool. So I think that's probably the biggest one, which is unless you're Steve Jobs, unless you know exactly the right answer and you can put everybody under your thumb and say, I'm going to micromanage you to death because I know what the iPod needs to look like.

00:22:15:21 - 00:22:26:17
Speaker 1
If you're that guy, cool. Don't listen to me right? But if you're human, you know, if you're like the rest of us mere mortals, yeah, probably.

00:22:26:17 - 00:22:33:21
Speaker 1
Probably. That's the biggest common denominator.

00:22:33:23 - 00:22:48:08
Speaker 1
The best.

00:22:48:08 - 00:23:08:08
Speaker 1
to the desk. And he allows them the autonomy to, you know, appraise their own trades. Here's a certain amount. And I don't know, I don't want to mess it up. It's $100 or $300. I don't know. But to make those people happy. And he has created a brand. But I think one of the most important things in that is the leadership of number one, deciding to do that, that we're

00:23:09:09 - 00:23:18:19
Speaker 1
Yep.

00:23:18:19 - 00:23:36:14
Speaker 1
make a difference. Number three, doing something that makes a difference. And you know, I would also argue, I've said it in here a thousand times, that the local car dealership, although people, you know, Pooh Pooh it a lot is the ones that always support the Little league teams that always are there to help, that always win.

00:23:36:20 - 00:23:43:17
Speaker 1
You know, we're talking to Troy Duhon in here. You know, the first episode of the year. And you know, when Katrina hit, you know, FEMA took over the dealership

00:23:46:06 - 00:24:02:02
Speaker 1
Yes.

00:24:02:02 - 00:24:21:07
Speaker 1
your your brand does not have a metric. And developing whatever you want your brand to be in your space, I think is, is so huge and understanding that, you know, we are so quick. And I am to, I said it to start the show. Yes. We, you know, to judge us.

00:24:21:08 - 00:24:49:16
Speaker 1
Obviously I'm a vendor partner. People tag and they see how we're. But but creating a brand is something completely different. And that doesn't have a metric. You said before the show, even I'm not sure if we talked about it in here in the last 24 minutes and 29 seconds, but I but I think that, you know, what what is the ROI on smiles that you cause, not only to your people that that call you boss, but to your customers.

00:24:49:22 - 00:25:05:07
Speaker 1
What is that metric like? What is, you know, what is that? You know, it you can't measure, you know, when someone has an incredible experience and then they go to their church, their synagogue, they go to their school, they go to the ball game, and

00:25:07:07 - 00:25:37:29
Speaker 1
That's right.

00:25:38:01 - 00:26:10:10
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:26:10:12 - 00:26:24:29
Speaker 1
That's right.

00:26:25:01 - 00:26:31:07
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, look, look, look at it from a, Like, Also, I will make the case

00:26:31:07 - 00:27:06:10
Speaker 1
again from a from even an ROI standpoint, which is, you know, the 99%, dealerships will sort of, pretend that they have a brand, but then rely a lot on anything that the OEM is doing. Whether that's tier one marketing, whether that's, you know, the type of chairs that they have to buy all of those things.

00:27:06:13 - 00:27:40:01
Speaker 1
And I get there's complexity in that. But there is so much blue ocean in the world of just saying, hey, not only is the benchmark of having a brand low like we can easily stand out here, but also, the amount of competition is insanely low to, to do, you know what I mean? See, it's like, why would you not be investing over there?

00:27:40:03 - 00:28:12:13
Speaker 1
Other than, you know, the excuse of, well, what's the ROI? Okay, I promise you that the brand of CarMax, and, even Carvana, with the ups and downs of them, has actually almost proven the point, right? Which is like, yeah, I get the, you know, the the feeling of those two brands from a dealership perspective.

00:28:12:15 - 00:28:44:22
Speaker 1
But I'd also argue that they're a great example of, someone saying, you know what? No one's over in this 70 degree, perfectly awesome, clear blue water ocean. Let's go take that over. And that's where I think a lot of dealers are. They're focusing on the metrics to compete over there, as opposed to focusing on, hey, now you come shop local, come shop with, you know, the guys have been with you since, you know, 1983.

00:28:44:25 - 00:28:56:27
Speaker 1
Come, come hang out with the guys that sponsored your little league. You know what I mean? Like reinforcing all of those things. Yeah. That would be the biggest piece I hope everybody takes away from me.

00:28:59:15 - 00:29:03:13
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:29:03:13 - 00:29:17:07
Speaker 1
and I'm going to share. Your brand does not have a metric. I would argue we've done an okay job at building a brand. I do think it's very, very important. And I love, love, love that. But we always need work.

00:29:17:10 - 00:29:44:23
Speaker 1
Ben, thank you so much. If you want more information. We didn't even get into Auto genius again. These aren't pitches about my company or another company, but what the, Ben, Kyle and team are doing at Auto Genius is pretty exciting. Making your website, they're agnostic, making things super fast. We're doing some exciting things on the side as well, but, we're going to provide a link at the bottom, there where you can click on and check out what they're doing there.

00:29:44:26 - 00:30:05:10
Speaker 1
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you. Hopefully, I've heard from a lot of you, we are Your Commute podcast, where you listen going to and from the dealership. So we thank you for that. We thank you for the emails and the text that we are making a difference. That's all. We just want to make a difference. And, and thank you for the encouraging, correspondence.

00:30:05:17 - 00:30:23:03
Speaker 1
Back to us here. As we always say, we start and we end. Thank you so much. And we, look, no one is smarter than everyone. We're going to keep at this thing, and we're going to continue to get better together. We will see you next time. TSM.

00:30:23:03 - 00:30:30:17
Unknown
And I.

00:30:30:19 - 00:30:31:21
Unknown
Knew.